BBLISS- That is why I posted it. But it seems like, from what I have read in the PP cafe, that women aren't having the same problems with thier uncirc'd boys. IT really makes me think that a lot of the bad advive caused so many problems for the previous generation. The thing is that most docs at the time had NEVER dealt with an uncirc'd boy, or not many, so there were even more myths than today about the proper care. Also, although the memory is more solid at an older age, I would personally (and I hope I get a boy one day!) wait and see because the most obvious difference is that adult males can use post op pain relief and can understand the neccessity of the procedure. But that is just me! It is still a choice only a mother can make.
Hello, My name is Katy:)
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" Delos B. McKown
“True friends stab you in the front.”Oscar Wilde
BBLISS99
Posts: 241
4/25/06 6:58 A
Julybaby, that is good advice for others moms as there children get older to watch out for. My husband discussed these options with the doctor and his phimosis was such that surgery was the only option. He did have most of the foreskin removed. He could not be happier and has no regrets.
Girl 6/22/06
9lbs 12oz and 21 inches
Boy 10/04/04
9lbs 3oz and 20.5inches
MY_DIAH
Posts: 14844
4/25/06 2:27 A
I think so many men had problems because of all of the BAD advice they got on how to care for a penis. Also there are therapeutic treatments for tight foreskin and circ'ing can agravate that in men as much as it relieves it. Really, how many girls get vaginal infections or have painful sex?
Here is some info on more conservative treatments for tight foreskin, instead of amputation. __________________ NORM-UK estimates that at least 9 out of 10 patients undergoing circumcision in British hospitals do not need to be there 1 2. Conservative, non-surgical treatments for common foreskin problems are much easier, cheaper and far less likely to cause long-term harm to the patient 3. Unfortunately many doctors are unaware of these. Others are uninterested in preserving the patient's foreskin for religious, personal or even financial reasons. It is important that doctors keep up to date and ensure that any decisions to undertake an invasive procedure are based on the best available evidence. Therefore, to circumcise for therapeutic reasons where medical research has shown other techniques to be at least as effective and less invasive would be unethical and inappropriate. [The law & ethics of male circumcision - Guidance for Doctors, BMA, March 2003]
Development The foreskin and the glans develop as one structure. Natural separation of the two structures occurs gradually during childhood. The age at which the foreskin becomes retractable differs for each child. It may take until the age of 17 or beyond. This is normal. Forcing the foreskin to retract may cause pain, bleeding, scarring, infection, and adhesions. Therefore, the foreskin of a child should be retracted only by the child himself when he is ready to do so. Stretching a tight foreskin The vast majority of tight foreskins can be suitably loosened within a month or so by careful stretching twice daily. Use baby oil, Vaseline intensive care hand and body lotion, Nivea or any bland cream as a lubricant. Pull the foreskin forward away from the body several times then pull it back as far as it will comfortably go and hold it in this stretched position for several minutes. When the gap becomes large enough insert your thumb, or smaller finger if necessary, into the foreskin and grip the glans (the head of the penis) between finger and thumb. Roll the foreskin over the thumb until the tight ring is white with stretching. Hold it in this position as long as you can at a time - say 5 minutes. Repeat as often as you have the time and enthusiasm for. If later you find there is room for two or more fingers then use them. It may also help if you soak your penis in warm water for some minutes before you start to stretch. Steroid creams Steroid creams should be used next if no significant progress has been made after a month. The cream you need is called Betamethasone 0.05% sold in 30 G tubes. It is sold in the UK as Diprosone. It is a prescription-only medicine which means you will have to ask your doctor for a prescription. The cream should be massaged into the tight part of the foreskin inside and outside 2-3 times a day for at least a month combined with further stretching. As the foreskin widens it may become apparent that the frenulum is restricting retraction. This can be remedied by a small operation called a frenuloplasty performed under a local anaesthetic. Preputioplasty (Dorsal Relieving Incision) A preputioplasty should be able to cure any tight foreskin where stretching and steroid cream application have failed. This is an operation in which a cut is made through the tight ring that is limiting foreskin retraction, in an up and down direction and then sewn up in an across direction. Once this has healed (2-3 weeks) the foreskin can usually be retracted fully and the only change in appearance is a notch that becomes visible in the skin as it is retracted. Make sure that you agree with your surgeon how far you will allow him to cut through the foreskin.
Circumcision Exposed: Rethinking a Medical and Cultural Tradition
Buy From amazon.com
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More BooksShort frenulum A short frenulum may be the cause of a foreskin not retracting behind the glans, or pulling the glans downwards as soon as retraction begins. If stretching the frenulum fails, as it usually does, it can be freed by a minor operation called a Frenuloplasty. This can usually be performed under a local anaesthetic. Ballooning of the Foreskin Ballooning of the foreskin while urinating can be a normal phase of development during childhood. It is not an indication for circumcision. Ballooning is a temporary phenomenon that arises when the foreskin begins to separate from the glans. It speeds the process of separation and disappears when the process is complete. Phimosis Phimosis is a name given to the condition where the foreskin is unretractable. We must distinguish normal (physiological) unretractability from abnormal (pathological) unretractability. Physiological unretractability of the foreskin is found in nearly all new-born infants, and becomes increasingly uncommon with advancing age. It is not an indication for circumcision.
Pathological phimosis is scarring and obstruction of the opening of the foreskin. This is rare and may be found in diabetes, and in a localised skin condition called lichen sclerosus which is often referred to as "balanitis xerotica obliterans" (BXO) when it affects the penis. In this condition the skin is thickened, white, and hard. Circumcision is a treatment option for lichen sclerosus of the foreskin when it is refractory (unresponsive) to conservative treatment. Circumcision will not however cure or prevent outbreaks of lichen slerosus elsewhere on the penis. The medical literature contains many reports showing that most cases of phimosis can be treated effectively by topical steroid applications or by conservative surgery. "True" phimosis --- better termed "preputial stenosis," because "phimosis" has so many different definitions it now is devoid of any useful meaning --- occurs in less than 2% of intact males.
Of these 2%, 85-95% will respond to topical steroids. Of those who fail this, at least 75% will respond to stretching under local anesthesia, either manually or with a balloon. The arithmetic is simple: At the very most 7 boys in 10,000 may need surgery for preputial stenosis. No wonder the Canadian Paediatric Society calls circumcision an "obsolete" procedure! [What is 'phimosis'?, Van Howe R, CIRP]
Further information Further information on the conservative treatment of foreskin problems can be found on CIRP.
References 1 - What is 'phimosis'?, Van Howe R, CIRP (further references on CIRP page) 2 - Rickwood AMK, Kenny SE, Donnell SC. Towards evidence based circumcision of English boys: survey of trends in practice. BMJ 2000;321:792-793. 3 - Sivakumar B, Brown AA, Kings L. Circumcision in 'buried penis' - a cautionary tale. Ann R Coll Surg Engl. 2004; 86(1):35-7. Medical professionals should also refer to the Phimosis Clinical Guidelines page and accompanying references
Edited by: MY_DIAH at: 4/25/2006 (02:39)
Hello, My name is Katy:)
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" Delos B. McKown
“True friends stab you in the front.”Oscar Wilde
SHAZZ2006
Posts: 636
4/24/06 7:18 P
My step son was not circumcised, and when he was about 10 months old he was diagnosed with cerebral palsy -- we do all his personal hygiene and now my dh wishes they'd had him circumcised.
BBLISS99 (Bethany)- As for how common formosis is -- I had a boyfriend who had the same thing. Sex was painful for him too. I mentioned this to my cousin and she was the one who told me that mom's are supposed to retract the skin when the toddler gets to a certain age (or maybe she meant that the parents are just supposed to encourage their son to do it).
Anyways, while my cousin and I were having this conversation her husband's friend said he was circumcised at the age of 23 and it was the best thing he ever did. It was like only seeing in black and white all your life, and then pow! Colour. (referring to the enhanced sexual stimulation).
Edited by: SHAZZ2006 at: 4/24/2006 (19:20)
Raleigh Jean born Aug. 2/06
Step-mom to a 17-year-old son
MY_DIAH
Posts: 14844
4/24/06 10:32 A
Bethany There is always another side to it. When it is for medical reasons it is a surgery, same with a woman having her breast done because she lost them to cancer, or they are too big and need to be reduced.
Hello, My name is Katy:)
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" Delos B. McKown
“True friends stab you in the front.”Oscar Wilde
BBLISS99
Posts: 241
4/24/06 10:07 A
I just wanted to say a few more things. My husband did not get circumcised until we after we were married 6 months. He was not circumcised b/c he had a lot of health issues at birth and his mother did not want to put him through any more pain. As far as hygiene he did not have any problems and it was no big deal.
Fast forward to the high school, he applied to coast guard and went in for a physical. He told me the doctor grabbed his penis and tried the force back the foreskin it would not go back. He said hey what are you doing that hurts. The doctor told him he had formosis and would need to be circumcised before he could be accepted to the coast guard. Well he met me and decided to stay close to me and he did not want to have the surgery.
We get married. I had no problems with the uncircumcised penis. His is the only adult penis I have seen. Oral was no problem. Intercourse hurt him b/c the skin would put pressure on the head and cause pain. He went in and had the outpatient surgery. Let me tell you it was very painful for him. Mostly b/c of the erections that he would get at night during sleep or involuntary ones b/c he was trying not to think about them. It was at least 2 weeks to heal and a month before he was back to normal. Sex for us was way better after the surgery and he did not experience any loss of feeling or drive.
When we had our son it was not even a question that he would have it done. I know it was painful for my son and I did a lot of research on the methods and the pain meds. I had a pediatrician perform the procedure. My husband did not want him to go through the trauma and pain as an adult. We found out later that a boy should be able to fully retract the foreskin by 5 to 9 years old. My husband was never told that he should be able to retract the foreskin. I don’t know how common this condition. My husband was very adamant about this. I was very respectful of his decision due to the fact I did not experience his pain.
I agree with most of you that it is not medically necessary most of the time. I appreciate how much kinder this thread is than the circum research thread is. There is no way to know if your son will need to get a circumcision until the foreskin will naturally retract on its own ( 5- to 9 years old). I want you to know another side of the issue and it is not always a mutilation. It was a necessary procedure that actually enhanced is pleasure during sex.
thanks for listening to me -Bethany
Girl 6/22/06
9lbs 12oz and 21 inches
Boy 10/04/04
9lbs 3oz and 20.5inches
CJRENN
Posts: 289
4/23/06 4:10 P
LTLFAERY - Thanks so much for the info on that article. I thought it was excellent! I'm printing it out in the hopes of at least getting DH to read parts of it...
MOM_BRAIN
Posts: 5354
4/23/06 3:47 P
LOL! Prince Albert....
Luckily I have an uncir' man and he's very happy that he's not even though his dad is. There's no question that we won't do that if we have a son.
I feel so bad for the ladies that "let" their DHs make the decision and then regret it. I'm sure it's hard to see a son go through that knowing it's not really going to do them any good.
I'm doing "THOSE" parties now. :) I'm very excited. Mommymail me for more information.
www.bekahssecret.yourpassionconsultant.c om
www.beautipage.com/rmaitland
www.mygeekyhusband.wordpress.com
MY_DIAH
Posts: 14844
4/23/06 11:56 A
XAK- The issue as I understand it is that they are "missing" a part of their penis. It can be a hard thing for some guys to accept and some just won't accept it and that perpetuates the act. I definitly understand it, although I can't agree with what it leads to.
Hello, My name is Katy:)
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" Delos B. McKown
“True friends stab you in the front.”Oscar Wilde
XAKANA
Posts: 5075
4/23/06 11:49 A
And a much shorter arguement to "I want him to look like me," is "Tough--he won't. Whether he's circumcized or not, every man's penis is different. He may inherit the look of his more from his mother's father or maternal grandfather. The chances of him looking like his father with or without the surgery is very slim. So mutilation will not make him 'look like dad' but could cause problems for him the rest of his life."
I just don't understand how men, with all their protectiveness of their penises, would advocate cutting into their son's. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. I've never heard of a father with a PA (Prince Albert) saying "I want him to look like me, so let's get it pierced!"
~Xak
Life is a journey, time is a river, the door is ajar.
I'd rather be a failure at something I love than a success at something I hate.
Judge not a man by how he treats his equals, but by how he treats those he views as inferior.
Sorry, I have so many interesting things on this subject. Maybe this will help. ___________________________ AN APPEAL TO FATHERS:
Mothers and Fathers sometimes painfully disagree over whether or not to have their new baby boy circumcised.
When our generation was born, many things were different than they are today:
* Mothers were often heavily medicated during labor and birth. Therefore, many of us were born heavily drugged. Today it is known that this is not good for babies. Most mothers today would rather be conscious and aware during birth. Therefore, today most mothers give birth with little or no medication (in comparison).
* Little regard was given to the family unit during birth. Our fathers probably "paced the waiting room", while our mothers had only impersonal doctors and nurses present when we were born. Most of us were taken away to a central nursery while our mothers were tended to separately after birth. Today most people believe that it is much better from a "human" standpoint for birth to be a special, joyous, family-centered event. Most mothers and fathers today want to be together during birth and to hold and be with their babies right away.
* Most of us were bottlefed. Often doctors and nurses actively discouraged mothers from breastfeeding because they had little understanding of the process. Today it is well established that breastmilk has many nutritional advantages over formula, and that breastfeeding can be a warm, loving, wonderfully special experience for most mothers and their babies.
* Most of us had our tonsils out as children. At that time the medical profession believed that tonsils were the cause of many diseases such as chronic sore throats, colds, and ear infections. But over the years the medical profession has slowly learned that normally occurring body structures do have a purpose in the natural health of the body. It is now known that tonsils do serve a purpose in fending off the diseases that they were once believed to have caused. Today tonsillectomy is much less common than it was when we were children. Most of today's children are growing up with their tonsils.
* People used to think that smoking tobacco was harmless. Today, many well established medical studies have confirmed that smoking tobacco products causes many dangerous health problems. This information is now printed on cigarette packages. Many doctors today actively attempt to discourage their patients from smoking.
* People once thought that eating large amounts of red meat and rich dairy foods was healthy. Today it is a well established fact that such foods are high in cholesterol which can contribute to hardening of the arteries and heart attacks. Today, people are frequently admonished to modify their diets and be cautious about eating cholesterol rich foods.
* The medical profession believed that cutting off the foreskin (circumcision) offered many health benefits such as prevention of cancer, infections, and venereal disease. Today, more recent findings have proven that the earlier studies were wrong, or at best, risks such as cancer of the penis are too rare to be considered valid reasons for doing the operation. We also know now that virtually all of the purported "problems" associated with the foreskin, such as infections under the foreskin or in the urinary tract, or abnormal tightness of the foreskin are totally preventable as long as the foreskin is left entirely alone. Today it is also known that the foreskin offers many advantages in protecting the more delicate glans of the penis from urine in diapers and outside abrasions from clothing. Most doctors today will advise that the operation is not medically necessary.
If you were circumcised as an infant or young child, your parents probably believed that they were doing something that was medically necessary and healthy. They probably had very little information about it. The operation may have been done to you when you were separated from your mother in the hospital nursery. Even though you probably have no conscious recollection of the event, you did undergo a painful, traumatic experience which many people believe may have left "forgotten imprints." Undoubtedly your parents had little or no awareness of what you went through.
When our parents were young, most people did not question medical authority or make choices about such procedures the way we are encouraged to today. Their's was a more naive, trusting way of thinking which has often been difficult for members of our generation to relate to.
Our parents did the best for us with what they knew at the time. Our generation has "survived"--but we have hardly been peaceful or problem free! Although carefully controlled, scientific studies would be extremely difficult to carry out, many people speculate that some of our generation's greatest problems may be related to how we were treated as infants and young children. For example, our generation's extensive difficulties with drug abuse may have its roots in our heavily drugged beginnings at birth. Many have suggested that our society's abnormal obsession with breasts as sexual objects may stem from our having been deprived of nourishment from our own mothers' breasts during infancy. Our generation's tendency towards alienation from our parents may stem from our initial separation from our parents when we desperately needed them immediately after birth. And many people have speculated that some men's sexual difficulties or tendencies toward violence or callousness may have begun when a painful operation was performed on their penises during infancy.
Whether or not any of this is true, most of us as new parents do want much, much better for our own children. So please think about circumcision for the baby in this context:
Your son is not a carbon copy of you! Right now you are very much proud to have a new son. You will have wonderful experiences being his father. But whether he is circumcised or not, he will almost certainly turn out to be very much different from you. He is his own person. He may look different from you. His personality may be different from yours. He may develop very much different skills and interests from your own. (Are you exactly like your father? Or would you want to be, as much as you may admire him?)
Your son will love and respect you as his father. Being a loving, supportive, understanding "Dad" is the very most important thing you can ever do for your child. A child is more likely to become alienated and resentful of his parents if he is pushed or forced into patterns based on his parent's ideas that "aren't him." This is true for all facets of life--not only circumcision. If you leave your son intact and raise him with a healthy attitude about his body, he will easily understand that you had that piece of skin cut off long ago, but he did not. He may grow up to be very happy and proud to have a body "as nature made it." Or he may grow up and decide at that time that he would rather be circumcised. If so, this is fine too as it is his body and he will have made that decision for himself, rather than having had it forced on him.
Maternal protective instincts are sensitive and powerful! Your wife/partner has carried this baby inside of her body for the past nine months. As he grew larger she felt his every movement. Her entire body has been completely involved in his growth, development, and birth. Her life has been filled with plans and dreams for this baby. Now that he is born, she is very much bonded to this tiny, helpless, new little being. The natural hormones that are at work in her system right now produce overwhelming maternal protective feelings. She intensely does not want this baby hurt in any way!! We are undoubtedly purposely designed this way to insure the survival of the human race.
As a man, these feelings may be difficult for you to understand. Although you are happy to have a new baby, it may be months before you develop a similarly strong bond to your baby. But as a caring, concerned husband/partner, please make every attempt that you can to respect these powerful, exquisitely sensitive maternal protective feelings that she has.
Although a father may be able to shrug his shoulders and quickly forget about his baby undergoing a painful operation, a mother's heart may be torn to shreds if her baby is taken away from her and put through a painful, traumatic procedure. Most mothers, if made aware of the facts about circumcision, and if allowed to bond with their babies, will choose against circumcising the baby simply because of these natural, maternal protective feelings. Many such mothers will end up agreeing to circumcision if their husbands or partners insist upon it. But his can cause resentment and alienation on her part towards her husband or partner, even in an otherwise good relationship.
Although, like you, the baby may have no conscious memory of undergoing circumcision, many mothers of circumcised babies do have painful, heartrending memories of the event. Feelings of guilt, anger, alienation from the baby, and difficulty in relating to her husband or partner can result if she feels that he maternal protective instincts towards her baby were cruelly violated. If for no other reasons than this, please seriously consider leaving your son intact for the sake of respecting her natural, maternal protective feelings.
Hello, My name is Katy:)
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" Delos B. McKown
“True friends stab you in the front.”Oscar Wilde
CJRENN
Posts: 289
4/23/06 11:19 A
I'm struggling with this issue as well. We don't know what we're having but everyone thinks it's a boy. If it is I don't want to circumcise him - there is no medical reason and I don't like the idea that we wouldn't even know the doc doing it, it would be a hospital staff doc. Seems really easy for them to cut off too much causing all sorts of problems. However, DH is staunchly saying he wants it done - that it is like critical to him that our son look like him. I don't know what to do - I gave him some links to some very balanced info on the procedure but I doubt he'll even read it. He just doesn't seem to be willing to discuss it and I hate bringing it up b/c it's definitely a sore subject. He thinks it's ridiculous to even consider not doing it and can't believe I'm serious about it. There are plenty of arguments for not having it done and simply "I want him to look like me" isn't particularly compelling for me. Compounding the issue is our pediatrician told us if we are going to have it done then we need to be sure to have it done at the hospital and don't wait - basically b/c it's a big issue to get done afterwards as outpatient with her. I just don't know what to do...
MY_DIAH
Posts: 14844
4/22/06 1:18 P
This is a comparison of the rational behind male and female circ. How would these men feel if they had a girl and this was common practice.
Clitoridectomy and Infibulation in Africa Infant Male Circumcision in North America
*"She loses only a little piece of the clitoris, just the part that protrudes. The girl does not miss it. She can still feel, after all. There is hardly any pain. Women's pain thresholds are so much higher than men's."
*"It's only a little piece of skin. The baby does not feel any pain because his nervous system is not developed yet."
"The parts that are cut away are disgusting and hideous to look at. It is done for the beauty of the suture."
"An uncircumcised penis is a real turn-off. Its disgusting. It looks like the penis of an animal."
"Female circumcision protects the health of a woman. Infibulation prevents the uterus from falling out [uterine prolapse]. It keeps her smelling so sweet that her husband will be pleased. If it is not done, she will stink and get worms in her vagina."
"An uncircumcised penis causes urinary infections and penile cancer. It generates smegma and smegma stinks. A circumcised penis is more hygienic and oral sex with an uncircumcised penis is disgusting to women."
"An uncircumcised vulva is unclean and only the lowest prostitute would leave her daughter uncircumcised. No man would dream of marrying an unclean woman. He would be laughed at by everyone."
"An uncircumcised penis is dirty and only the lowest class of people with no concept of hygiene leave their boys uncircumcised."
"Leaving a girl uncircumcised endangers both her husband and her baby. If the baby's head touches the uncut clitoris during birth, the baby will be born hydrocephalic [excess cranial fluid]. The milk of the mother will become poisonous. If a man's penis touches a woman's clitoris he will become impotent."
"Men have an obligation to their wives to give up their foreskin. An uncircumcised penis will cause cervical cancer in women. It also spreads disease."
"A circumcised woman is sexually more pleasing to her husband. The tighter she is sewn, the more pleasure he has."
"Circumcised men make better lovers because they have no more staying power than uncircumcised men."
"All the women in the world are circumcised. It is something that must be done. If there is pain, then that is part of a woman's lot in life."
"Men in all the 'civilized' world are circumcised."
"Doctors do it, so it must be a good thing."
"Doctors do it, so it must be a good thing."
Sudanese grandmother: "In some countries they only cut out the clitoris, but here we do it properly. We scrape our girls clean. If it is properly done, nothing is left, other than a scar. Everything has to be cut away."
My own father, a physician, speaking of ritual circumcision inflicted upon my son: "It is a good thing that I was here to preside. He had quite a long foreskin. I made sure that we gave him a good tight circumcision."
35 year old Sudanese woman: "Yes, I have suffered from chronic pelvic infections and terrible pain for years now. You say that all if this is the result of my circumcision? But I was circumcised over 30 years ago! How can something that was done for me when I was four years old have anything to do with my health now?"
35 years old American male: "I have lost nearly all interest in sex. You might say that I'm becoming impotent. I don't seem to have much sensation in my penis anymore, and it is becoming more and more difficult for me to reach orgasm. You say that this is the result of my circumcision? That doesn't make any sense. I was circumcised 35 years ago, when I was a little boy. How can that affect me in any way now?"
Edited by: MY_DIAH at: 4/22/2006 (13:20)
Hello, My name is Katy:)
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" Delos B. McKown
“True friends stab you in the front.”Oscar Wilde
JOSIAHSJOURNEY
Posts: 2649
4/22/06 1:09 P
I showed my boyfriend the intact video and I don't think it affected him in any way. He kept on saying the baby won't remember it. So i asked him, so basically if he won't remember it then it's ok. Is it ok to take advantage of a woman and have sex with her because she's passed out drunk and she won't remember it?? He said it's different, and I said no it's not. You said it's ok because he won't remember it, well neither will she. It's a violation, so of course it's not ok to EVER do that to a woman but I don't think he saw the connection that I was trying to make. It's not about the baby remembering it ( I still think they do but aren't able to say so) it's about doing an unnecessary procedure!! He says he understands how I feel, but he truly doesn't. I understand that this is not just "my" baby but ours but this is one decision that I am not giving up on, I'm adamant that he will not be cirumcisized if it is even a boy. Sometimes I just secretly hope for a little girl...
Bubba on his 1st birthday!!! ... My baby came 10/04/06 at 2:05 pm after 33 hours of labor. He was 8 pounds even, 21 inches, 14 inch head and I had him all natural with a midwife.
2weeks:9.5 2 months, 15 lbs
6 months, 20.4 lbs
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MY_DIAH
Posts: 14844
4/22/06 12:25 P
JELLYK- MY best friend let her DH decide and she to this day regrets it. She didn't go in and her DH thought since it was just a piece of skin that it wouldn't hurt. Her son didn't nurse EVER again. She was strongly against it but let daddy decide. Are you willing to ask dh to see one performed? Also I have the URL that lists and shows EVERY type of circ method, its graphic but it shows your choices.
Hello, My name is Katy:)
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" Delos B. McKown
“True friends stab you in the front.”Oscar Wilde
KJMAMA
Posts: 592
4/22/06 11:54 A
My Hypnobirthing instructor, who used to be a labor nurse, said that the nerve block anesthetic rarely actually helps because it has to be administered at least 20 minutes prior to cutting, and the OB's have such a tight schedule that usually that much time isn't allowed, so the block doesn't kick in until after the surgery.
I'm glad to hear stories of babies who seemed to do ok, with a quick easy recovery. I'm having such a hard time with this because I said I'd let DH be the one to make the final decision, but the longer I have to think about it the more strongly I feel that I don't want to do it. Sigh...I guess that's part of being married, you don't get to just decide everything yourself :)
MOM_BRAIN
Posts: 5354
4/22/06 3:07 A
LTLFAERY- LOL! I can see it now! The little boy gets wide eyed and worries about who "they" are!
I'm doing "THOSE" parties now. :) I'm very excited. Mommymail me for more information.
www.bekahssecret.yourpassionconsultant.c om
www.beautipage.com/rmaitland
www.mygeekyhusband.wordpress.com
MOM_BRAIN
Posts: 5354
4/22/06 3:05 A
I'm glad you laughed. I know that it's hard to read what people mean sometimes.
LOL! PENIS-UNCUT! OH OH! Directors cut! Ok, enough puns. I was trying to make a good joke, but instead I thought of that and it was much funnier. Can you tell it's late and that I'm tired?
I'm doing "THOSE" parties now. :) I'm very excited. Mommymail me for more information.
www.bekahssecret.yourpassionconsultant.c om
www.beautipage.com/rmaitland
www.mygeekyhusband.wordpress.com
LTLFAERY
Posts: 9488
4/22/06 2:42 A
I would think that a simple, "well, your daddy and you are different because they cut off part of his penis" would be enough explanation to anyone...didn't Sheryl say something on those lines? I remember a funny story coming out of this and her uncirc'ed son's face.
*remembering the triplets*
JOSIAHSJOURNEY
Posts: 2649
4/22/06 2:39 A
lol!!!!! I think it's funny... I do appreciate all feelings and opinions even if they're different but i couldn't help laughing the whole time I read your reply!
Bubba on his 1st birthday!!! ... My baby came 10/04/06 at 2:05 pm after 33 hours of labor. He was 8 pounds even, 21 inches, 14 inch head and I had him all natural with a midwife.
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MOM_BRAIN
Posts: 5354
4/22/06 2:14 A
I'm sorry, but I just have to let this out.... I am in no way saying that parents that have their babies done are bad, but here's my some of my feelings.
Doesn't it seem odd that they make sure that the baby pees? Like they may have snipped too much and now that baby needs to go through more to get it fixed? If there is no reason to get it done in the first place, why take that risk that your son has to go through more surgeries to fix and unnecessary one? Oh yeah, because daddy doesn't want his boy to be different.... Um, to me that's a little selfish and more of a problem for the dad than the boy. Selfish also in the way that sexual pleasure is generally better for those that still have the extra skin! So because daddy can't get maximum sexual pleasure, the baby can't when he gets married. WHAT!
Sorry, there is my vent. I know that my grandpa was done, and I think he mentioned that my uncle was done and even with that, my mom still didn't get my brother done. My FIL is done and he didn't have my DH done and DH doesn't feel "different" from his dad. In fact, he's happy about it!
And the notion that this has been done for thousands of years like the video said is apparently wrong. This is what MOLLYSUEWHO wrote in the June board-
"Regarding religious reasons for circumcision... this one was a shocker to me... turns out that the children of Abraham back in Old Testament days did NOT remove the entire foreskin like doctors do now. The "circumcision" performed back then (picture the father with a primitive knife hovering over his baby boy) was only a nicking of the foreskin to create a little "V" scar. So the circed boys were recognizable, but they still had use and protection of their foreskins. Evidently full and aggressive removal of the entire foreskin is a relatively new procedure, historically speaking. (I read this in a book called "The Joy of Uncircumcising".)"
Again, I'm sorry if I sound like I'm putting parents down for their decision. Just like going in to labor with the notion of getting an epidural vs not, breastfeeding vs formula, it's a decision that the parents need to make for themselves. I would just like to see that parents actually have a reason other than just wanting it for looks and less locker room jokes. I can see why men who have it done later in life would want their sons done at birth. I still don't think it's necessary, but there is a reason. Just be informed and don't go into it blindly. That's when I hear people regretting it afterwards. When they are told it's "the thing to do" and then they find out, it really isn't necessary, but a choice.
I'm doing "THOSE" parties now. :) I'm very excited. Mommymail me for more information.
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JOSIAHSJOURNEY
Posts: 2649
4/22/06 1:30 A
Here they don't give any anesthesia or pain medication whatsoever... My boyfriend keeps telling me that he won't remember it (if it is a boy afterall but my gut feeling is it is) but that's not my main concern. I understand that it is a painful experience. My concern is that it's not medically necessary but if it was or is I would/will go right ahead with it. I just don't want to alter the baby in any way. I don't even want to pierce the baby's ears if it's a girl because I feel that she should choose, but that's a different story. I wonder why they administer the drugs in some places but not in others?
Bubba on his 1st birthday!!! ... My baby came 10/04/06 at 2:05 pm after 33 hours of labor. He was 8 pounds even, 21 inches, 14 inch head and I had him all natural with a midwife.
2weeks:9.5 2 months, 15 lbs
6 months, 20.4 lbs
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GE0RGE
Posts: 4071
4/21/06 11:50 P
I love cosleeping. But I think we might be getting to a place where we sleep better if he's in his own bed, but we'll see. It's not for everyone, but I like that I can roll over, "whip it out", and feed him without fully waking. I think we all get more sleep this way.
And we circumcised our son. It was really important to dh and I don't think he would have wavered regardless (he's a little closed-minded about it). I figured I had my way on a lot of things and I needed to let him be a father and make a decision, so he did. There is a video on Intact's website that shows the procedure. Even after seeing it dh advocates circing. My midwife's husband had to be circed as an adult and said all his sons would be. Also my brothers had it done when they were older - one was in 1st grade and he remembers it. I think it was pretty painful.
I was concerned about it because someone on here had told me how their son's personality changed after it, from the trauma of surgery so young. I was really worried about M, but there have been no ill-effects from it. I went in the room with him and held his hands as they did it, I think it was probably harder on me than him! He did cry, but I think it was more because his legs were strapped down. They injected his penis with some novocaine first. It didn't seem to bother him ever, he never winced with changing. I don't recall how long it took to completely heal - we went back in a week for a ckup and it was fine. I watched his personality and I don't think he has really been affected by it. Some people don't have good experiences, but ours was fine. A side note though, I did wait until he was older to have it done, not the next day. "Older"... he he... he was 10 days old. I figured his little body was better able to handle surgery at that point instead of hours after birth. On trauma in a week is enough if you ask me!
One other thing to consider that I do not think that I saw on this thread yet is that according to my OB the administration of the pain meds for the circumcision also come with their own risk. We as perspective parents were warned that if we had a boy and if we circumcised that some of the OB's in the office were not comfortable administering the one kind of shot in the penis for pain management because of the small risk of very serious side effects.
We did not have a boy so we did not have to even consider the issue, but I definately would want to research that more before making a decision to circumcise with that form of pain management.
MOM_BRAIN
Posts: 5354
4/21/06 3:36 P
BBLISS99- I'm sorry to hear that you've gotten a negative response. You have a reason other than wanting to look like daddy or it's the thing to do. That's like my stylist that didn't want her son to go through that after seeing her father have to go through much later in life. But with you, it's something to worry about because you don't know how it would be for your son later in life. It's not just a matter of keeping it clean.
Thank you for sharing that.
I'm doing "THOSE" parties now. :) I'm very excited. Mommymail me for more information.
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KJMAMA
Posts: 592
4/21/06 3:35 P
I just want to throw out a thank you to everyone for staying supportive on these subjects - both of these came up in other forums and it got so nasty I didn't even want to come back to the site. I love the Natural Birthing thread because it doesn't go there :)
DH was emphatic about circumsising our son, until we went for our final birthing class and he saw pictures - now he's on the fence. It's true, our sons' locker rooms won't be the same as our husbands' locker rooms - the rate is down to a little over 50% in the US. And kids will tease each other - if it's not about their penis it'll be something else.
As for how to talk to a child asking why he doesn't look like his dad, it's pretty simple. "They used to think that cutting off the end of your penis was a good idea...now they don't."
On that note, DH is on the fence, so we may end up doing it anyway, and I will try not to have too much of a fit even though I feel stronger about it every day. Healing time supposedly is about a week, but that's just what I've heard from other ladies on this site. Some boys will cry every time they pee if it hurts them, and some don't even seem to take notice.
Good luck to all, this is one of the hardest decisions...
Edited by: KJMAMA at: 4/21/2006 (15:36)
JOSIAHSJOURNEY
Posts: 2649
4/21/06 1:37 P
It's good to hear different approaches and opinions on these subjects. My boyfriend won't research the circumsizing, he's too caught up in the fact that he is and when I tell him that medical opinions have changed over the years, it's goes through one ear and out the other. What is the time that it takes to heal on a newborn?
Bubba on his 1st birthday!!! ... My baby came 10/04/06 at 2:05 pm after 33 hours of labor. He was 8 pounds even, 21 inches, 14 inch head and I had him all natural with a midwife.
2weeks:9.5 2 months, 15 lbs
6 months, 20.4 lbs
SUPPORT ME GOING BACK TO SCHOOL TO BE A WAHM!!!!
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KNEWMAN
Posts: 3007
4/21/06 11:36 A
I co sleep because that way I get so much more actual sleep. DH couldn't do it at first, I would just sleep with dd on my chest, or sometimes with her head on my arm and the rest of it around her, to block dh. Now, we both do it with our son. He wanted to circumcise too. I told him that it was his decision to make and got research for him. He decided against it. I would suggest trying cosleeping, and give it a good amount of time to get used to it, but if it doesn't work for you, stop (you will have to work out a gradual system). My kids start out in their own bed each night (maybe not if sick or teething). At the first feeding they came to our bed, as they start sleeping through the night, they start sleeping in their own bed. That way I am sure to get some good sleep too. We have gotten so used to it that I have woken up and can tell that I fed him, but don't remember it. Do remember though, to not cosleep after drinking or taking any medication that makes you sleepy, as that raises any risks.
pastor's wife, breastfeeder, co-sleeper, high school teacher, delayed-vaxer, baby-wearer, homebirther...
Kristi
BABYWEBEL
Posts: 1026
4/20/06 11:23 P
We chose not to co-sleep and we are very thankful for our decision. My daughter had her own room and own bed and knows it is her own. She just turned a year old. We got her on a schedule quickly and she was sleeping through the night at 2 months old. (8hrs). So, there wasn't even a need to have her in with us. Because my first is still in the crib, we did get a bassinett for this new baby and she will be in our room, but not in our bed until they girls are sleeping similar hours at night and won't wake each other up. Then eventually we will move my daughter to a toddler bed in a different room. We just didn't want two nurseries. The great thing is that you truly can take it one day at a time. If something isn't working - you aren't sleeping enough or baby is waking up too much, then you can easily try another option!
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WONDERLAND11
Posts: 1113
4/20/06 11:03 P
I couldn't co-sleep. I have a lot of sleep issues myself and having a baby in bed with me made them much worse. I slept in her room on a different bed for about six weeks and even that was extremely difficult. I didn't get a good couple hours of sleep until I moved out of her room. She slept much better after I moved out as well. I think my daughter and I are very much alike in our sleeping habits. This time I am having a boy and am against circumcision. My DH wants to do it but is willing to talk to the pediatrician and read different articles about the pros/cons before finally deciding. The circumcision rate in the USA has dropped down to 50% and the infection rate between circumcised and non circumcised men is the same. I am originally from Europe and no one my home country gets circumcised unless there is a medical reason for it later in life.
LTLFAERY
Posts: 9488
4/20/06 7:32 P
there was an awesome circumsicion thread in this forum, and I believe it had articles regarding the 'why am I not like daddy' "concern" guys have. they're elbows,knees, lips or eyes won't be the same for that matter.
we co-sleep. I LOVE it. Wouldn't have it any other way.
*remembering the triplets*
MOLLYSUEWHO BabyPoints:2853
Posts: 1034
4/20/06 7:03 P
My DF wanted to consider circumcision. I'm dead set against it. Unlike him I like to read... and have gone through all the research... and I found out that the available research contradicts every available argument for infant circumcision. I came to the conclusion that it's barbaric genital mutilation, and I think doctors who do it for non-medical reasons should lose their licenses! Sorry to sound so emphatic and extreme - am not knocking other people's choices, of course. Anyway I told DF that if he wanted me to consider circumcising our son then he would have to read some articles on it and watch an infant circumcision video at full volume. That pretty much ended the discussion. It helps that we're not having the baby in a hospital - we'd actually have to go out of our way to get one done.
Edited by: MOLLYSUEWHO at: 4/20/2006 (19:04)
EDD was 6/4/06 - River James Mariott arrived early on 5/24/06 at 12:46 a.m. We are so blessed!
MAGGIE1978
Posts: 4072
4/20/06 5:20 P
For co-sleeping, I would bring my son in bed with me on most nights at about 5 or 6 am and bf him in bed and sleep just to get a little more shut eye after being up every 2 - 3 hours. That stopped when he was about 6 mos old.
As for circumcision, we opted not to cirucmcise our son, and if this next one is a boy we will not have him done either. DH is done, but we did a lot of research on the subject and there is NO medical reason to have it done. The myth of it being unclean dates back to war days when a lot of men were uncircumcised and they had no clean water and certainly no soap to clean themselves properly when they were in the trenches etc. so a lot of men got infections and had to be circumcised later in life. Most of us know how to keep ourselves clean and have the amenities to do so. My midwife also advised me that so many people are now opting not to get it done, that by the time our young boys are in school, it will be 80% un-circumcised to 20% circumcised. These are Canadian stats though, I think it is more common to have it done in the states.
Goood luck in your decision.
Edited by: MAGGIE1978 at: 4/20/2006 (17:21)
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MY_DIAH
Posts: 14844
4/20/06 4:41 P
You can ask him to see one being performed. I have read tons of stories of women and men changing their minds after seeing it done.
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MOM_BRAIN
Posts: 5354
4/20/06 4:10 P
If we were living in a time where people didn't know about personal hygeine, then there would be more reason to do it. But we know so much more now. Plus the whole religion aspect can take a play, but from what I'm reading, that's not a big thing for you or your BF.
My DH isn't, but my FIL is (that's what I've been told, I haven't seen and I don't want to see! LOL) but there wasn't a "why am I different from daddy" issue. I can see why that can be a big deal for some guys. Even though it's a little weird, it's like a dad saying, "He's gonna be big and strong like his dad." Well, I guess matching down there is similar! LOL. Maybe if you show your BF some of the research why not to do it, he may come around.
I'm doing "THOSE" parties now. :) I'm very excited. Mommymail me for more information.
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JOSIAHSJOURNEY
Posts: 2649
4/20/06 3:28 P
Thank you ladies!! My boyfriend (FOB) doesn't mind the co-sleeping but if it is a boy (we're waiting until birth to find out) he believes that he should be circ'd because he is. I don't agree. I feel that is irreversible and I'm not doing anything that's not medically necessary to make him happy. He says that he'll grow up wondering why his isn't like daddy's and I keep telling him the baby won't be as bothered by it as him. Then he brings up the school thing. We don't take showers at school anymore, they haven't done that in almost 20 years!! I personally don't believe in doing anything to your body, baby or adult that is unnecessary especially for cosmetic reasons(except my tattoo which is the beginning of a family tree..). Get over it I tell him!
Edited by: JOSIAHSJOURNEY at: 4/20/2006 (15:29)
Bubba on his 1st birthday!!! ... My baby came 10/04/06 at 2:05 pm after 33 hours of labor. He was 8 pounds even, 21 inches, 14 inch head and I had him all natural with a midwife.
2weeks:9.5 2 months, 15 lbs
6 months, 20.4 lbs
SUPPORT ME GOING BACK TO SCHOOL TO BE A WAHM!!!!
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MOM_BRAIN
Posts: 5354
4/20/06 2:02 P
Initially, we were going to only co-sleep for one week, then she would go into the craddle, then eventually into her own room.... Well, she didn't like the craddle at all! It wasn't time for her. So she stayed in our bed until 2 months, then I would nurse her in our bed until she was alseep, then I put her into her crib in her room. She slept for a while and when she woke up I would just bring her into bed with us and nurse her there and sleep. I agree, much more sleep that way! My DH would ask me to just nurse her in her room, but both of us (DD and I) didn't really get sleep that way. Only on nights that she was fussy would I stay in the other room so that DH could sleep before going to work. By 3 months she was sleeping through the night. Course, I still wanted to sleep in the morning so unless I was getting up already, she would come into bed with me and we would sleep some more! SLEEP IS GOOD! She's gone back and forth on sleeping through the night and now she is absolutely in her bed through the night. On occasion, if it's already morning (not before 7 or 8 though) and she wants to crawl into bed with me, I have no problem with that. But that's very rare now.
On cirumsizing, I won't do it. If this (my) baby is a boy, it's not happening. Not because DH isn't, but because I don't think it's necessary. They say it keeps it cleaner, but it loses it's own protection. Just raise the boy to know to keep it clean. Some think that being circumsized is better sexually, it's not. Sexual pleasure is better for the uncircumsized, nerve endings aren't missing and the fold of skin protects the head thus not desensitizing it. And as the baby gets older, thus bigger, it can end up being really difformed! I took a human sexuality class for a short time and we saw pics. It can really be bad. Course, my hair stylist will because her 70 yr old father had to have it done. She said it was really bad and that she doesn't want her son to go through that. So everybody has there reasons, but I don't think it's worth it. If there is a problem with not being circumsized, you can get it done. Once it's done, it's done. No going back if there's a problem.
Good luck with your decision. It's a tough one. Somebody said that kids in school will tease boys that aren't because it's a sign of being "POOR". I think that's rediculous, but you know how kids are. Some think that if you're not, then your on state medical insurance and that doesn't cover it. Therefore you're poor. It's all silly.
But medically, IMO, it's not necessary, especially at birth. If it turns out that it needs to be done, well, that may be a different story for us. But not as a baby.
Again, good luck with that.
I'm doing "THOSE" parties now. :) I'm very excited. Mommymail me for more information.
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www.beautipage.com/rmaitland
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RAES4BOYS
Posts: 9147
4/20/06 1:48 P
We have been co-sleeping for almost 6 months now. It is nice to have the baby right there to nurse, but to me it doesn't really make it any more convenient. I still have to get up to change his diaper before I feed him. We are now regretting making the decision to co-sleep because our baby is a light sleeper and thrashes around all night long. We haven't had a good night's sleep in 6 months!
Jack Finley: Homebirthed, Waterbirthed, Non-circumcised, hardly vaccinated, exclusively breastfed, cloth diapered and perfect in every way!
SREXRODE1
Posts: 16553
4/20/06 1:33 P
I started cosleeping when I had my fourth child. I had had a LONG night at the hospital after she was born and when I got home, I put her on my belly and slept. It was SO nice because I had here right there with me. When she woke to nurse, I didn't have to do anything more than roll over:) I've done it with each of my children since and found that I get SO much more sleep. They also sleep better, because they don't wake fully to nurse. A lot of people are concerned about the difficulty of getting Baby into it's own bed. The first two that I coslept with transitioned VERY easily. My 26mo is having some difficulties. We have her in a toddler bed at the bottom of our bed. From there, moving her into her own room should be easy, but we're fine with her where she is right now.
My first two boys were circumsized. My third is not. I just assumed it to be one of those "things you do" and didn't research it. Dh wanted it, so we did it. The first was done by bell. It was horrible when it came loose! The second was cut off, but it bothered him whenever I cared for it while it healed. Before I had my third boy, I started questioning everything. I decided against vax (totally diff subject there), circ, and I started cosleeping. I don't regret not having my boy circ'd. None of my boys have ever commented about the differences there. My son is now 4yo and knows to pull back the foreskin in the bath and after going potty. He's had a few times where it's gotten slightly red. Of course, dh says it's because he wasn't circ'd, but my other boys had occassionally too.
Our eighth baby was born at home July 23, with the help of our wonderful midwife! Benjamin was 8lb 3oz.
I breastfeed, homeschool, use natural products, cosleep, cloth diapers, wear my baby, attachment parent, don't vaccinate, and love God, my husband of over 18 years, and my kids!
SASHA_K
Posts: 20771
4/20/06 12:30 P
make sure you have a good matress cover if you are a cosleeper! (I learned that the hard way)
Mia, Sophie and Me
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JOSIAHSJOURNEY
Posts: 2649
4/20/06 11:23 A
I would like some advise and what others experiences are on c-sleeping and circumsizing. Anybody??
Bubba on his 1st birthday!!! ... My baby came 10/04/06 at 2:05 pm after 33 hours of labor. He was 8 pounds even, 21 inches, 14 inch head and I had him all natural with a midwife.
2weeks:9.5 2 months, 15 lbs
6 months, 20.4 lbs
SUPPORT ME GOING BACK TO SCHOOL TO BE A WAHM!!!!
http://www.myspace.com/josiahsjourney
Check out the summer dresses I'm selling
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